Building the Base episode 7: William “Mac” Thornberry, former Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee

Lauren Bedula
Welcome back to Building the Base, Lauren Bedula here with my cohost Hondo Geurts. We’re really excited today to drill into some of these issues we’ve explored so far, but really from the policy perspective. We couldn’t think of a better guest to have then former US Representative William Mac Thornberry, who served as the US representative for Texas’s 13th congressional district from 1995 to 2021, so for a good chunk of time there, and he recognized how important technology is when it comes to national security and the threat landscape. For a while back now, he has been working on issues along the lines of acquisition reform and trying to figure out how we can strengthen public private partnerships from a policy perspective. I’m so excited to dig into some of that today here, and one fun fact is that Mac’s family has operated a family ranch since 1881. So, I just love hearing about that and maybe we can weave some of that in today too.

Hondo Geurts
Good to have you here with us, Congressman. So, a little bit interesting for me normally, it’s Congressman, I think we’ve agreed we’ll go Mac and Hondo. Usually I’m the one answering your questions in hearings, so it’s payback time. It’s awesome to have you here with us Mac, as Lauren kind of shadowed there, really interesting background. People usually focus on the end of their career not the start. How did you get to be in here sitting with us? What was your story growing up, and how did how did they get you into Congress?

Mac Thornberry
Well, I think the short story is my family thinks I’m really weird for what I’ve done. As Lauren said, I grew up on a family ranch, and that’s pretty much what all my family has done. Nobody was involved in politics, but somehow growing up, I figured out that there were people a long way away who were making decisions that affected us seven miles down a dirt road outside of town of 2000 people in the Texas panhandle. And so, when I was a kid, I got interested in politics, and then my reading took me to World War Two about junior high age. And so, it was politics and national security, basically, from then on. After I graduated law school, I moved to DC without a job, just to see what it was like and ended up working for a Texas Republican doing national security, which was nothing but pure luck.

I worked up here in DC for about six years on the Hill and at State Department, and then went back home.My brothers and I started a cattle business next to our family place,practiced law, and then I ended up unexpectedly running for Congress at the worst time in my life. Worst as far as just made partner at the law firm, our kids were two and four, it made no sense whatsoever, but I did. And then you kind of wake up 26 years later, and you know, you’ve been there a while.

Lauren Bedula
That’s awesome. Sir, you talked about your background and spending time on the ranch and then here we are in Washington, DC. So, you know how to navigate different cultures and people and figure out how to get things done. A big reason we started this podcast is because there’s a lot of interest in figuring out how the Department of Defense and national security community can better work with startups in the high-tech sector. You saw these issues from your time on the House Intelligence Committee and as chair of the House Armed Services Committee, so I was wondering if you could tell us why you think this is so important and what really made you recognize this issue?

Mac Thornberry
Well, I think part of what you’re describing is being a translator. And you’re right, that’s what a lot of politics is. It’s taking complicated issues and getting down to the heart of the matter and trying to visit with your constituents or whoever about it. When you get to the heart of the matter of US national security, it is that we have a moral obligation to provide the very best that our country can provide to the men and women who risked their lives to defend us. I mean, that, to me, that’s kind of where it starts and stops. And in addition to that, you read a little bit of history, and you realize that — I used to have this quote from a speech I gave in the 90s, and I can’t remember exactly how it goes, but it was, “throughout history, there have always been nations that have taken advantage of technological change, and others who haven’t, and those who do come out victorious, and those who don’t get left behind.” And so, you know, we’re the greatest country in the history of the world, but it is not inevitably so forever and ever. And so, taking advantage of what this country produces technologically is the right thing from a big historical standpoint, but it’s absolutely the right thing on behalf of the men and women who serve.

Hondo Geurts
So as a career acquisition guy, you’re legendary. I didn’t say infamous, I said legendary. For a lot of the acquisition reform stuff that you and your colleagues worked with Senator McCain and across the aisle, in a very bipartisan way, really trying to get at some of the systemic issues and trying to streamline where we can and shed some of the bureaucratic weight that’s kind of barnacles that have grown on the system. How did you go about that? Did you reach the goal you wanted? Or what were some of the lessons learned as we think about this whole industrial base issue, which is very complex, multifaceted, many stakeholders, what can we learn from your experience trying to do the acquisition reform element of that, and how should we be thinking about this new vision of how to really harness as you said, all of these inherent strengths of our country?

Mac Thornberry
Yeah, there’s probably a lot of lessons and some of the basic ones go to the fundamental fact that any big organization has challenges with change. That’s how it got to be a big organization. And when you get to be big, then you have people who have vested interest in continuing to do the way things the way that you used to do – and so I’ve really started focusing on this. In the late 90s, you’ll remember maybe the revolution in military affairs and some of the ideas that people had, at that point, for ways to improve our military – obviously9/11 happens, we’re all focused on terrorism for a long time. But I came back around to try to make a fairly intensive study of this – talking to people a lot smarter than me, before I became Chairman. Then, I was incredibly fortunate to have Senator McCain become Senate Chairman, at the same time that I became House Chairman, and we both saw this exactly the same way. So, as you mentioned, we changed lots of laws and put new authorities in and did a whole variety of things, which I think were good. A lot of folks would say, “Okay, the authorities are in place, now we need to go to the next step.” And part of the next step, in my opinion, is the budget, the spending, which has not been reformed in a similar way, but also the culture. So, you’ve got the authorities there, why are people taking more advantage of them, more like you did, when you had that opportunity in the Navy, and before that at SOCOM. So, culture plays a big role. I think Congress can influence culture, by the hearings it has, and so forth. I used to threaten, and I never did it, and I regret it, but having like three program managers who manage programs that did not work out and have them testify. And pat them on the back saying “you did a good job of finding out what didn’t work,” we want people to take risk. And unfortunately, we’ve gone the other way, in that we are not taking risk, we’re afraid to change and meanwhile, you have to pay attention to what other countries are doing. If we continue to not take risks, then I’m afraid we’re not going to be able to continue to defend the country.

Hondo Geurts
So, one of the great things about working with you on the Hill is that you are approachable to have a dialogue. Because I think what tends to happen is both sides – you know, everybody I would hear at the Pentagon said, “well, we can’t do this, Congress will never let us,” and they self-limit use of the authorities given because of some perceived issue. What would be recommendations for folks on the Executive Branch? My sense is having those dialogues is useful. There’s a little bit of a sense of, “Well, if we talk about it, then they’re going to not let us do it before we even start.” I think that’s kind of a misperception. But you’re in a unique place to give some perspective on that.

Mac Thornberry
No, I think being afraid to talk about something you would like to do, not only prevents you from the kind of smart risk taking that I was talking about, but it also will invite backlash. Communication, in most things in life, is the key. And it can explain why you want to do it; what is inhibiting you now; and promise to stay in touch. Again, I think part of the next step, in my personal opinion, is greater flexibility in the use of funds. That’s going to require the Executive Branch to come to Congress and say, “We’re going to tell you how we’ve spent the money; we’re going to be very transparent about it. But we just can’t promise two years ahead of time, we’re going to know exactly how we’re going to spend money on a new software program,” or whatever it is. And so that communication and transparency is what will allow us to have greater flexibility, I think.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah, it’s kind of counterintuitive. I think, for some folks that have been in bureaucracy that, you know, well, the way to do what we need to do is talk less, and that generally does not work very well.

Mac Thornberry
And, you know, in the rest of the story is people in the bureaucracies, people in Congress, despite popular belief, are generally human beings. And so human beings learning to trust one another, communicating with each other, that’s how we get better. And we shouldn’t be afraid to do that, and shouldn’t be afraid for somebody to say, “Oh, I think you’re full of it. You’re wrong.” That’s part of the communication.

Lauren Bedula
Mac, you talked about the cultural barriers to adoption of some of the acquisition reforms that you worked on, and its pretty cool sitting here with both Hondo and you, really acquisition powerhouses both on the legislative side and the executive branch. So, I’m curious for both of your reactions to this. Do you think the authorities exist to move faster? The acquisition process is complicated by design, right, because we need to enable fair and open competition, too. So, do we strike the right balance here? Is there work to be done? Or is it all cultural at this point?

Mac Thornberry
Well, Hondo is the expert, but I’ll just report that what most people tell me is that Congress has provided the authorities if they can be understood and can be used. And so, I think Congress always ought to be open to looking to see what could be done better and having the sort of dialogue we were just talking about to say, “Okay, we need to tweak this law, or we need to change this or that.” Congress always ought to do that. But generally, I think the authorities are there, it’s culture, and I keep going back to the money and financing.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, folks thought the reason special operations could go fast was unique authorities. And they really didn’t have any unique authorities. I had more authorities as the Assistant Secretary Navy. Its practices, its training, and its dialogue to understand how to do that. At least on the acquisition law side. On the financial side — and I’m hopeful that PBE commission, some of the work everybody’s working on will help make sure we’ve got the equivalent flexibility. And then you’ve got to have the courage to use the full authorities you have. I would encourage anyone out there listening, if somebody tells you, you can’t do it, ask him to show you where it says you can’t do it. Because what tends to happen over time is, you know, a lot of barnacles grow a lot of old wive’s ;ales, or old husband’s tales grow. Suddenly, you’re told you can’t do something, but nobody can point to the thing that tells you can’t do it.

Mac Thornberry
And if I could just add one thing, leadership matters a whole lot in this, especially at DOD, if you have somebody like in Hondo’s position, who were kind of pushing to try this out, you can do this, then that makes a big difference. If you have people in Congress kind of backing you up with that, partly by pointing out what happens if you don’t, this fossilized system that is not moving and compare it again to the adversaries then then you we can do much better than we see day to day.

Hondo Geurts
One thing that you know, especially you learn in the Special Operations community is the risk of not doing something. And too many times in a large bureaucracy it’s more about the risk of doing something and less about the risk of not doing something. If you’re out in the field using an old piece of antiquated equipment that’s very beat up and unreliable, that creates a lot of risk for commanders. We never weigh that when we’re weighing bringing new equipment into the field. I think that’s another element when we talk about risk. You’ve got to look at it from all stakeholders’ perspectives, not just not just the acquisition one.

Lauren Bedula
And when we talk about all stakeholders, too, I’m curious from where you sit, is there anything the private sector can be doing better to as partners, is it protests that are slowing down the process, or does anything come to mind about how the private sector could be a better partner?

Mac Thornberry
I think the private sector can always do better at communication, just like we’re talking now. Because it really is three different languages in a way, you’ve got government, and you’ve got the tech sector, and you’ve got the finance and investment sector, which is critical for this. Back to our point on translation, that’s really what we need. But I think your point is right; there has developed, at least in Congress, and probably elsewhere, a suspicion that the tech sector didn’t really want to work on national defense issues. And a lot of it goes back to some Google employees several years ago, they made a big stink about working on a particular program. I think that’s changed. But I do you think it’s somewhat incumbent upon the tech sector to verbalize. Yeah, we know our company is only here because of the freedoms which our country and our government give us, and we have a responsibility to contribute in a way that makes financial and business sense. And that sort of attitude will help allay some of these suspicions that were developed and probably haven’t gone away completely.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting watching where you’re working in the sector, some of us who have gotten out of national security, many would nontraditional companies. And I find a lot of that is communicating, and translating, and creating at least some common layers of understanding, which we need to form before you can get trust, and then do identify in Silicon Valley Defense Group, I think BENS, a lot of these organizations serve a good purpose from that perspective as we look at this future industrial network. What’s your sense of where the opportunities lie to bring in the whole might of our national power to that. And we talked a little bit about the tech sector, finance sector, do you see an approach that will allow us to bring all those in? And how might Congress be a player in that, from your experience?

Mac Thornberry
I think there is interest in a variety of industrial sectors to do business with the government to contribute to our national security. But you cannot expect businesses to do that at a loss. Not that everybody has to make money every time they bid a contract, but my point is, we’re really at an important time, in my opinion, where there needs to be some winners. If somebody makes both a commercial and a military version of something, they need to see that, okay, they’re not going to lose their shirt by participate by messing with the Pentagon bureaucracy, getting all balled up with the lawyers, and not being able to at least have a chance to make a profit on the military side of it. Because if that’s what they take away, they’re just going to focus on the commercial. And we’re not going to be able to have the kind of innovation we need to defend the country. And I think a great place to start is just to read the news about where other countries are investing in things like AI and a lot of space capability, the list goes on. We can keep up with them, we can pass them. But we can’t do it with an arm and a half tied behind our back, and too often our system has that effect.

Lauren Bedula
Now, you’ve had so many years of public service and are now on the other side. And one of the organizations you spend time with is the Silicon Valley Defense Group, which is a strong partner of BENS at looking at some of these issues. So, I’m curious what attracted you to that organization, and why you think the mission is so important?

Mac Thornberry
Well, when I was Chairman of the Armed Services, I would try to make at least yearly trips to Boston, Austin, and Silicon Valley, just because when we’re talking about the hubs of innovation in the private sector–go talk to them and see what’s going on. And one of my first visits out to Silicon Valley, I became acquainted with some of the founders of Silicon Valley Defense Group, McCain had talked to them and I think it was his staff that suggested you need to go talk to these guys. And it was the only place I saw that was trying to fulfill this role of being a connector for government and the tech sector and finance. And so, I thought, okay, these are some folks that are putting the pieces together, and that’s what we need more of. I appreciate it and I think they’re still filling, in many ways, a unique rolein doing so. And at the same time, we were chatting before we started recording, I worked with BENS a number of years ago, you’ve got people who have obviously been successful in the private sector understanding what it takes having the leadership skills and volunteering to be a part of an organization contributing to national security. That’s the sort of spirit of service and giving back to the country that is so important for all Americans. And frankly, I think there is a lot of hunger out in the country to do that. We just make it too hard for people, for allies, to work with us sometimes. I think both these organizations are trying to send it back in a better direction.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah I would often say the thing that I wouldn’t say would keep me from sleeping, but I’d wake up thinking about was there a good idea somebody had somewhere in the country, and didn’t know how to get it to the national security realm. Or it was just so hard, they would just give up and then, as you say, some sailor or some soldier is going to pay the price for us not figuring that out. We’re here, Mac’s wife is here with us off mic, she’d be correcting everything Mac said if she was on the mic, probably. But it brings to mind balance, and you know, besides running a ranch, running committee, running campaigns, all pretty busy, important jobs, any tips you’ve had over the years to kind of keep balancing, keep your energy level up and not get burned out? As we go through this, I find a lot of folks coming up through the ranks, look and say, wow, I just don’t know how I’m doing this now. I don’t know how they can do it forever. And then I think some of us look and say, wow, that was it? It feels like just yesterday when we started out. Any tips or tricks? Things you’ve learned over the years that would help? How do we sustain all this great capability we’re putting together even just in our shelves.

Mac Thornberry
I guess I would say motivation is the key if you’re doing something you think is important, and it also brings at least some level of satisfaction to you. Throughout my time in Congress, I had college students who would be interns in my office all the time, but 75-80% of them said they wanted to be lawyers, so I would push them on it. Well, why do you want to be a lawyer? Some of them really did and have become very successful lawyers. But some of them didn’t really think about what it was, what it would be like, why they wanted to do it, they had maybe other interests that they didn’t want to pursue just because they thought it didn’t sound as cool or as successful. I guess my piece of advice to them wasto think about what would bring you satisfaction, maybe even over a lifetime. I mean, although nobody’s locked into one job or anything, the kind of thing that really helps you feel like you’ve done something important today. And if you can do that, then regardless of how much money you make, regardless of what other people think about it, you’re going to have a relatively happy, successful life.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah, I think if you look at your career, running a ranch, running a committee, or now running your own kind of successful thing on the side here, a lot of folks feel like they’ve got to do something, I’ve got to do one thing perfectly for 30 years, or 40 years. At least my experience has been I think some of yours, trying a bunch of different things, one helps you figure out what you like, and then two gives you context and a perspective that’s broader than just the one thing you’re in that’s tremendously impactful over a career.

Mac Thornberry
And I would just add, when it comes to national security, that is increasingly the case, where things we think of as not national security, like health care or other things, are affected. It’s the clear distinctions or silos, okay, this is national security, this is not, are breaking down. So having that kind of broader perspective, learning something in the case, say, of healthcare that might apply to attacking terrorist organizations was one example. Those sort of cross pollination ones can actually be really beneficial in solving difficult, complex problems.

Lauren Bedula
We talked about policies and some of the ongoing efforts. But at the end of the day, this is really a human endeavor here and stimulating talent will be key. When we’ve talked to investors on the show, they talk about how they’re investing in the people and we’ve talked to folks at universities looking through programs to stimulate this interest and appreciation for national security and prosperity. So, I’m curious if you’ve had any mentors, you talked about folks that you mentored in your office, but along the way that stood out to you as really key in influencing your career path.

Mac Thornberry
Well, the one that comes to mind is A lawyer I worked for all the time I was in law school. And he took me to breakfast and talk to me about, okay, what are you going to do after law school and he said you can go work for a Dallas or Houston law firm, you can clerk for a federal judge, but I know you’ve been interested in national in politics; you could also just go see what DC is like. If he hadn’t given me a little kick, I would have never done it. And obviously, my life would have been very different, I think, if I had not taken that. So, it really goes back to what we were talking about before trying to know yourself well enough to know what brings you satisfaction. I mean, that’s what he did for me. And so, I’ve tried to do an adequate job of translating that to other folks that that I come in contact with.

Hondo Geurts
I think, and you share your perspective, that sometimes you get into senior roles and it’s almost like people are afraid to ask you for mentoring or ask your opinion. And I like to bring every senior leader here and ask them to dispel another one of those rumors. I think most folks who enjoy leadership really love to mentor and see that as a core element of service. Folks shouldn’t be afraid to approach senior leaders or former senior leaders and ask them for a little time or a cup of coffee. But you know, what’s your sense of that?

Mac Thornberry
I would take it even a step further Hondo. Last fall, Sally and I had the opportunity to be resident fellows up at the Kennedy School at Harvard. And being around those young people, graduate students and undergraduates, was incredibly encouraging and energizing for us. I mean, I got a lot more out of it than anything I gave them. And to tell you the truth, sometimes you look at our politics, and you can get kind of discouraged about how we are ever going to solve these problems. But spending a little time around these bright, capable kids who want to find a way to serve just was a shot in the arm for us and very encouraging. We only half joke that we’re about ready to turn it over to them now. Because you’re right sometimes you can offer some help to somebody based on your experience or what you’ve seen. But you get far more back from being exposed to that enthusiasm, that willingness to serve, and that desire to make something out of your life. And that’s just one experience that was wonderful for us.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah, I would certainly agree with that. So, getting back to this wicked problem, so to speak, of how to how we transform from a WW2 industrial base,+4%, to where we need to be for the next 30-50 years. Any ideas on simple steps we should be taking? You know, you can get lost in the complexity. And then kind of argue it’s like a airing of grievances. And then we have the feats of strength, and nothing ever changes. What’s your suggestion, especially as you tackle act reform, taking small steps fast, what’s the rate? How would you encourage all of us involved in solving this problem to get after it?

Mac Thornberry
Yep. Well, a couple things come to mind. One, back to a point Lauren just made, people are the key. And we make it way too hard for people to come and help. In Congress, we’ve tried to put some things in, for example, if somebody has cyber expertise to allow them to come serve for a while and go back to the private sector and make it easier to go back and forth. But whether you’re looking at that, or whatever, we need to make it easier for the people who want to contribute to the companies, maybe the nontraditional companies who want to contribute to be able to do so. And I’ve already mentioned, what I think is really important is flexibility of funding, because you just don’t know where the technology is going to go several years out. And if we could begin down that road, I think that is key. And having that short of flexibility of funding will help attract private investment. As big as the federal government is, it doesn’t have enough money to do everything that needs to be done. We must be able to attract private investment for these causes. The hard question for me, and you may have a better answer, is to what extent do you try to fix the whole system? And to what extent do you keep developing these workarounds? And over the years, we’ve developed several of these workarounds to kind of get around this slow system and then the system tries to absorb the workarounds, you know, especially when they’re successful. And I think organizationally, it’s hard to know which is the better course. But we need to have some successes. And we need to have people who are willing to learn from those successes, and therefore adopt some of those approaches, even if adapted to their use.

Hondo Geurts
Another issue: I know you were on the Foreign Relations Committee. You noted a little bit on allies and partners. Sometimes it seems like we write policies to prevent us from giving stuff to our allies and enable our competitors to get it easier. Do you have ideas on where we could be looking for new opportunities in terms of working with allies and partners? When I think of an industrial network, I think it needs to include that broad swath to give us diversity, resilience, and quite frankly, some parallel capabilities.

Mac Thornberry
Well, I would even take it a step further, we can’t do everything on our own. We have to work with allies and partners. And as a matter of fact, the last Op-Ed I wrote in Congress in December 2020 was trying to make that point. We have this effort in Congress, for buy America, that’s too narrow, it needs to be buy America and partners and allies to have that broader base of innovation, with the resilience you’re talking about, but also to spread the burden somewhat. So, I think that’s really important. And it kind of goes back to my theme a little bit, we make it too hard for people and companies and allies to contribute, and updating our export control regime, to me, is really an important thing to do. And, we’re just seeing evidence of what’s happening in Ukraine, how important it is to have more capable partners able to defend themselves – that’s less that we have to do. And so, finding ways to help them build up and defend themselves is crucial. And of course, the flip side of it is, if we don’t do it, other people are going to be there. And you’ve seen China and others make a lot of sales in the Middle East in the past couple of years, because we have been too reluctant to help people who want to work with us.

Lauren Bedula
It’s a great point, because especially looking at BENS and SVDG, and working with companies that have such a global footprint, navigating this new world where we don’t have as free and open borders, for companies to really understand the threat that our adversaries pose and striking the right balance between prosperity and security. That’s so much of why we wanted to have this podcast and this effort through BENS. And so, I’m curious if there’s anything we haven’t asked you that we should have, or anything that comes to mind that we haven’t covered.

Mac Thornberry
The only thing I would go back to is one of the fundamentals here. I think it is incumbent upon everybody in leadership, especially political leadership, to educate and remind the American people how their daily lives depends on a strong defense and national security. And I have tell you, I don’t think I did as well on that as I should have during my time in office. Towards the end, I started going around the country to chambers of commerce and community leader groups, trying to make the connection. Yes, the military helps defeat terrorists. And yes, it helps keep the bad guys at bay. But it’s also what makes it possible for you to earn a living with freedom of the seas and freedom of space. And you know, and I’d always do the gas pumps connecting to the satellite, just to drive it home. Your daily life depends on the freedoms and security that the military provides. To me, that’s kind of what underlies all of this, and all of our national leaders need to do a better job. Sometimes Americans know it, but they need to be reminded of it. And that’s part of the responsibilities of leadership. I think we can all do better at doing that.

Lauren Bedula
It’s a really great point, because earlier, you talked about how Google pulled away from their work with the Department of Defense, which was in 2018. So not that long ago. And just last week, Google’s very publicly rolling out their defense business and this new entity that they’re creating and this passion for supporting defense. And I think with the conflict in Ukraine, we’re hearing more and more appreciation for prosperity and interest in contributing. So, to your point, I think about transparency –DoD-defined ethics and principles around AI and the use of artificial intelligence, as did Google between now and then, which I think was a really important dialogue to have when we’re thinking about how we’re using these new technologies. So, great point today about translating between communities having that transparency and collaboration.

Hondo Geurts
Yeah Mac, again thanks so much for joining us. It’s a real special treat to have somebody with your stature, reputation and experience here join in. To all those folks out there, I can tell you on a day-to-day basis, what you’re hearing, is what happens every day. I’ve seen it with small startups. I’ve seen it with interns sitting here, listening to this podcast. You know, he’s really contributed lots during his career, and continues to contribute, and lives by that. You know, we’re all in this together. And it’s our duty to serve and ensure we can protect our freedom and prosperity.

Mac Thornberry
Well, it’s going to take us all to contribute however we can. So, I appreciate this opportunity to visit with you all about it.

Lauren Bedula
Thanks so much, Mac.

Hondo Geurts
Thanks Mac.